Minutes of the sub-committee meeting of the Penrice Community Council held
on  Wednesday  13th January 2010
At the Horton Village Hall at 7.30pm

 


Members Present:                    Councillor G Roberts (Chair)
                                                Councillor J Bowen
                                                Councillor M Barnett

                                                           

 
Mr and Mrs Mumby and Jan Ellis were also present.

141/09                          Apologies for Absence.

Cllr T Methuen-Campbell

142/09                          Declarations of Interest.

 

None

 

143/09                          Sale of land adjoining Shore Cottage

 

 

1          The Chairman gave an overview of the situation;

The negotiations had been ongoing for nearly 2 years and the Council now needed to reach a conclusion in order to move forward.  The District Valuer has provided an independent valuation on the land and this has been agreed between Jan Ellis and the Council.  A site meeting was held with Councillors, Mr and Mrs Mumby, Nigel Bruce (on behalf of Mr and Mrs Mumby) and Jan Ellis to try and agree the boundaries. The main concern seems to be the triangle of land at the bottom of the drive.  Rights of access need to be established.  There is a covenant on the contract of sale to restrict any new access covenants and Jan Ellis would have to ensure that the existing rights remain as they are at present and that these rights are adhered to. 

 

2         J Ellis- At the site meeting Mr Mumby marked out on the ground yellow lines taken from

measurements from a new land registry map to show the boundaries.  J Ellis wanted to confirm

that these boundaries were accurate. Aerial photos were awaited to see if this could assist in

determining the exact boundaries on the ground.

 

3          Cllr G Roberts – Cannot use aerial photographs to determine boundaries, either a surveyor would

have to be employed or an agreement between the two parties would have to be reached.

 

4          J Ellis – Due to lots of different maps, old and new, this is causing difficulty as the detail has

changed over time.  A modern ordinance survey map was used to when the measurements were

taken and the yellow lines sprayed on the ground at the site meeting.  J Ellis thought the

boundaries were agreed and the Council did not accept.

 

5               Cllr G Roberts – The Council was under the impression that Mr and Mrs Mumby and J Ellis did not agree.  Either all parties need to agree the same boundaries or we try and get an agreement with further discussion.

 

6          S Mumby – The yellow lines were done quickly and using a modern map.

 

7          J Mumby – Nigel Bruce attended the site meeting and assisted in determining the measurements

for the boundaries.  The original sale showed different measurements as the map was older.

 

 

8               Cllr M Barnett – Years ago there was no byway and the road only went to Shore Cottage.  Now

that the byway is there has caused this small triangle of land.

 

9               J Ellis – The byway has certain dimensions recorded by the local authority.  It has public rights of

way as it is a byway.  The description on the proposed purchase includes land to the byway.

 

10         Cllr M Barnett -  suggested that the triangle at the bottom of the driveway is not sold.

 

11         J Ellis – requested to have free access rights in case in the future a granny annex, for example is

required at Shore Cottage.

 

12         J Mumby – Thought that he and Mrs Mumby already own this triangle of land at the bottom of the

driveway anyway as the land boundary on the opposite side of the driveway has moved.

 

13           J Ellis -  The original purchase agreement was to the boundary so if the triangle at the bottom of

the driveway was retained by the Council then would request that free access rights were given on this triangle of land,  to allow a granny annex in the future at Shore Cottage.

 

14           J Mumby –  Edward Harris, the solicitor has advised that Mr and Mrs Mumby have access rights over the triangle of land.

 

15         Cllr M Barnett – felt that Mr and Mrs Mumby had vehicular access over this area of land, having

viewed copies of the conveyance.

 

16         J Mumby – thought that he had vehicular access over this area of land.

 

17         Cllr G Roberts – The Council and all the parties involved have got to agree the parcel of land for

sale.

 

18         S Mumby – The maps have changed so much.

 

19         J Ellis – The aerial photos need to also be looked at.

 

20         J Mumby -  The scale on the original deeds of the purchase from Mrs Alexander, was 1/500.

 

21         Cllr G Roberts – All parties still need to establish what is for sale and what is not.

 

22           J Mumby – The measurements taken from the original map, are in our favour and that we own the triangle of land at the bottom of the driveway.

 

23         The Clerk asked how long J Ellis  had access rights?  Estimated from the 1870’s.

 

24         Mr Mumby said that he purchased the land adjoining the driveway to Shore Cottage in 1984 and

that the gateway was opened up immediately following the purchase.  Where by law does everyone stand as the maps have changed over the years? J Mumby agreed that the modern maps were probably more accurate.

 

25         J Mumby asked why the Council could not go to the Land Registry?

 

26           J Ellis advised that the Land Registry do not get involved with boundary disputes, but may offer

advice.

 

27         Cllr M Barnett – Mr Mumbys access rights are all along the boundary.

 

28         Cllr G Roberts – the boundary needs to be agreed before the Council can sell the land.

 

29         J Mumby – It is for the Council to find out where the boundaries are. 

 

30         Mr Mumby was asked if he had evidence of access rights. 

 

31           J Mumby stated that he did but refused to produce these and added that it was for the Council to

look in their files to find out the access rights.

 

32         Cllr M Barnett – If the drawings that have been used in the past or now do not have dimensions,

then none of the maps are worth anything.

 

33         J Mumby – Does not really know by law if this triangle of land at the bottom of the Shore Cottage

driveway is already owned unless he goes to the land registry.

 

34         J Mumby – The old map that was used for the purchase of the land is in our favour. 

 

35           Cllr M Barnett – proposed that the Council looks into making this triangle included in the byway so

that the byway can be moved up to include this small area of land.

 

36         Cllr G Roberts – The Council would need to take advice first.

 

37         Mr Mumby – Agreed with Cllr M Barnett and would be happy with this proposal.

 

38         Mr Mumby – Edward Harris had stated that under Section 62 he thought land cannot be sold

which is land locked. 

 

39         J Ellis – Is this the basis which you are saying you have access?

 

40           J Mumby – Is up to the Council to locate access rights information, I will not provide this.  Mr

Mumby said that I own the triangle of land.

 

41         The Clerk pointed out that a letter that had been written by Mr Mumby’s solicitor Mr Edward

Harris sent to the Council advising that Mr Mumby wished to purchase this triangle of land.

 

42         Chris Dale CCS would be the contact to discuss moving the byway.

 

43         A further site meeting was also considered.

 

44           Cllr M Barnett – If the Council decided not to go ahead with the sale to Jan Ellis then Cllr

Barnett thought that the Council had a moral responsibility regarding the fees which she had incurred.

 

45         Cllr G Roberts – Due to not being able to move this forward, will have to report this back to the

Council for a decision.

 

 

Meting ended 9.30pm