Minutes of the meeting of the Penrice Community Council held on ~
At the Horton
Village Hall
Members Present: Councillor A Glass – Chairman
Councillor J Bowen
Councillor A Oliver
Councillor I Williams
Councillor G Roberts
Councillor M Barnett
Approximately 10 members of the public were also present.
136/08 Apologies for Absence.
Cllr T Methuen-Campbell and Cllr G Davies
137/08 Declaration of Personal Interest
None at this time.
138/08 To Confirm the Minutes of the
meeting of 12th February 2008.
Jeremy Bowen, from the floor, queried whether Mr Mead had had meetings with Cllr Richards. Mr Mead, from the floor, said he had been at meetings at which Cllr Richards had spoken, and from this he knew Cllr Richards had a broad knowledge of caravan law, which was the point he made at the meeting.
Cllr A Oliver raised a query whether Cllr B Richards had a conflict of interest?
Following a discussion, Council agreed the following amendments:
Insert in Item 131/08 : Cllr A Oliver had requested that Council Officers be invited to the visit Greenways Caravan Park on Saturday 22nd March 08.
Item 131/08: Remove: Mr Mead stated that Cllr A Oliver had caravans on his land and asked what is the difference between himself and Cllr A Oliver.
Insert in Item 131/08: Cllr B Richards stated that Andrew Oliver managed land that had caravans on some of the fields. What was the difference between Cllr A Oliver and himself Cllr B Richards. Mr M Mead asked if these caravans were licensed?
The minutes with the above amendments were agreed to be a true and accurate record, proposed: Cllr G Roberts, seconded: Cllr M. Barnett
The Chairman suspended standing orders to allow Mr Malcolm Ridge of the Gower Society to speak next.
139/08 Malcolm Ridge, The Gower Society
Mr Malcolm Ridge introduced himself as the Chairman of the Gower Society and was here to establish any common ground that could be identified with the Community Council, in order to work more closely in the future.
The Gower Society background and what it does was outlined:-
Set up in 1947, first meeting 1948
Following a proposal by Butlin’s Holiday Group to set up a camp in Rhossilli, The Gower Society became a conservation and historic group.
· Support the Young Farmers.
· The Gower Society is non party political.
The problem of the lack of personnel situated in Gower from the CCS was raised. If problems with caravans illegally parked etc. then cannot be dealt with as the CCS staff do not work weekends. A Gower Ranger has now been employed.
Following a question from the floor from Mr J Bowen asking where does the Gower Society go if the CCS is not supportive?
Mr Malcolm Ridge advised that the Gower Society published a leaflet in 1956. Caravan site owners had to register within 6 months. If the CCS did not respond in the time, the site owners received the right to have caravans in the fields.
One problem is that not many of the caravans in Gower are available for tourists to stay in approx 8%. Mr Ridge agreed that there should be much more policing of all caravan sites, but that would probably involve a change in legislation.
The case of a local farm workers caravan that had been replaced by a Park Home due to having been there and inhabited for 10years and earned the right to remain.
Mr Jeremy Bowen from the floor asked why has the CCS been so remiss for allowing this to happen and why have the Community Council allowed this to happen?
Mr Ridge advised that the local authority used to do aerial surveys but stopped. The Gower Society now does this work. There are detailed aerial photos available for this earlier period.
Mr Jeremy Bowen from the floor raised the point that prosecution costs are so expensive, the Enforcement Dept would have to have a very strong case.
Mr Ridge advised that if a planning application is passed with for example 5 houses and 6 are built, this tends to be allowed as the land is reviewed and if 6 are acceptable then they are allowed to remain. However this leads to others doing the same.
139/08 Malcolm Ridge, The Gower Society cont..
Mr Jeremy Bowen from the floor asked why can’t the CCS do something about this?
County Cllr R Lewis advised that if outline planning consent is given for 3 houses and 6 are built, the Welsh Assembly will review the case and if the land can accommodate 6 then it will allow the 6 to remain.
Cllr Lewis continued that prior to the 1962 Act for Licensing caravans, many mistakes were made. This was over 40 years ago. The cost to the CCS is £15,000 per caravan for reducing the numbers, therefore it would cost millions. If a caravan is in the curtilage of a garden then this is acceptable, but if it is on other land then it can be enforced. Large sums of money have been lost fighting some cases. An example of one at Penllergaer was explained to the meeting.
It was agreed that the law needed to be changed, an amnesty was considered for site owners to have 6-12 months to get the correct numbers on site and then enforcement action would follow.
Mr M Mead from the floor advised that some of the caravan park owners/sites had been long established for over 50 years. The industry is berated due to newspapers hyping up the problem. The industry, including Mr Mead pushed for extra land to be used to offer facilities and camping venues to get people off the commons, but this was rejected by the Planning Department, CCS.
Cllr R Lewis stated that illegal campers cause more problems with rubbish and are more inclined to be rowdy etc. Sites generally are more regulated and if they are well run no problems occur.
Cllr A Oliver stated that the CCS promotes itself with Gower, and Gower will be ruined if it is allowed to over-expand. Tourists will not come if no enforcement is taken to stop the expansion. Is every caravan site in Gower legally complying with the numbers?
Omit line space
Cllr R Lewis – Yes
Cllr J Bowen queried that the caravan park in Port Eynon, the license commenced 1st April and caravans had been there all weekend.
Omit line space
Cllr R Lewis said that their license was pre 1960.
The Chairman had spoken to a caravan site owner in Carmarthenshire and he had advised that they keep pushing the boundaries and eventually get accepted.
Mr Ridge advised that if touring pitches are taken for the year, then advertising should stop as visitors arrive and there are no vacancies.
Mr Ridge advised that by working together with the Community Council, it would combine a broader overview of a situation along with grass root information, which would be served by communication and a common interest.
The Gower Society could sponsor tree planting schemes, pond restoration and provide grants. Over the last 10years have they donated over £300, 000 in grants for various projects.
140/08 Matters Arising from the minutes.
Item 103/07 The leaflets had all been distributed.
Item 109/08 OVW Planning Training - Very informative - changes planned would allow the Community Councils’ views to be heard more. Authorities would be more pro-active in obtaining views prior to the decisions.
Item 126/08 Cllr M Barnett asked County Councillor R Lewis why the Leisure Centre pool was not open until 4pm term time?
Omit line space
Cllr R Lewis advised that there were problems with the pool, but would check as he thought it was open from 10am. RL
Item 125/08 Planning proforma – deferred until the next meeting – CCS weekly lists are available online.
Item 128/08 (5) Boundary Review – Letter of response from Reynoldston Community Council was read to the meeting. Awaiting the response from Ilston CC.
Item 128/08 (6) Cllr A Oliver had received a response from the CCS and the problem had been dealt with.
Item 130/08 Planning Application no 2008/0192 Horton Nurseries. An objection to certain elements of the application had been received and had been passed to the CCS.
Item 130/08 Planning Application no 2008/0064 This application had been deferred from the last meeting and had been passed. Cllr I Williams had been made aware of the lighting comments made by local residents. He explained that the lights had altered due to compliance with Health and Safety. He also advised that 80% of the lights were switched off overnight. Cllr I Williams agreed that he would look at changing the angle of the lights to make them lower. IW
Item 131/08 Greenways – The CCS had been in contact with Mr Mead and agreed that a give way sign would be placed at the junction of the entrance/exit of the site.
Greenways meeting Cllr A Oliver to arrange with John Hague to have CCS Officers present at the visit. AO
Item 132/08 Notice boards – Cllr G Roberts advised that the board had been ordered and would be up by April. GR
141/08 County Councillor R Lewis
Reported: The opening of the Leisure Centre had been very positive. The new Library was very up-market. School closures and maintenance had been considered by the CCS -£600,000 was needed for Knelston School, but Cllr Holly had assured that the school would not close. 28 million was needed for the Guildhall. The Brangwyn Hall panels had suffered from water leakage. The City Centre roadworks had caused problems, but £5 million had been received from The Welsh Assembly for this work. Gower brings in 100 million every year. Sands are disappearing from the beaches and in some areas the clay is showing.
A discussion followed on the dredging off the Gower Coast and the possible impact on the beaches.
142/
08 Community
Councils
One Voice Wales – Membership £85. Council agreed to continue the membership and pay.
143/08 Correspondence.
1 CCS - A reply from Ian Davies, The Enforcement Dept CCS, confirming that there was not an application for established use submitted at the moment.
Mr Mead from the floor explained that Mr Patrick Atherton had written in January 08. Mr Ian Davies had been off work sick for 5 weeks and didn not respond and the fact that the application was not submitted for consideration, was purely down to the CCS not responding.
2 The Welsh Assembly Government – Amendment and new additional undertaking to the Code of Conduct for Councillors to sign. Due to the complexity of the text of the letter, Council decide that they needed to properly consider the correspondence before signing and the Clerk was to send a copy via
e mail to be signed at the next meeting. Must be signed by the 1st May 08. SC
3 CCS – details regarding the forthcoming elections. Noted
4 Copy letter regarding footpaths from Kate Beynon. Noted
5 CCS - Planning Application no 2007/2675 Refused
6 CCS - Planning Application no 2007/1383 Withdrawn
7 Safer Swansea Partnership Noted
8 Alzheimer’s Society – Financial request Noted
9 Scope – Financial request Noted
144/08 Financial
One Voice Wales - Membership £85 Chq no 340
The Clerks salary – information protected under the Data Protection Act - Chq no 339
Proposed to pay: Cllr A Oliver seconded: Cllr G Roberts
Carried unanimously
Cash at the bank 29th Feb 08 - £ 10,725
145/08 Planning
Cllr I Williams declared a personal interest in items 2007/0064 and 2008/0336. Cllr I Williams advised the Council that permission had been received for Item 2007/0064.
Application no: 2008/0061 Greenways Holiday Park- Retention of decking and disability ramps.
Mr Mead advised that the decking had been erected by the individual caravan owners and that a blanket application had been submitted. The permission was for established use for 4 years which was the requirement for private applications. Another application would be submitted for any other decks not included in this application.
Following a discussion, Council decided that subject to this application not clashing with the replanting application and model standards for decking, there were no objections.
Application no: 2008/0336 Norton Farm, Oxwich - single storey conservatory – No objection.
Application no: 2008/0397 HeathCote, Horton - single storey side extension – support no objection.
145/08 Planning cont…
Application no: 2008/0337 The Dingle, Horton – Erection of one detached dwelling on land adjoining The Dingle.
Cllr G Roberts passed a letter of objection from Mr and Mrs Nicholas on the grounds of subsidence on current access, scale, amenities, threatening existing utilities and unnecessary development and that the area is kept free for emergency vehicles.
Mr Tucker of the Beeches is also concerned that his access would be blocked with parking of vehicles.
Council decided to object on the grounds listed above. Copy letter to Cllr G Roberts of the Council letter to the CCS SC
An application was submitted from the floor for Robins Rest no 2008/0445. The Clerk had not yet received this application. Council decided to consider it as it had been presented.
Application no: 2008/0445 Robins Rest Horton – outline planning for a detached property.
Council decided to object as the application was not in keeping with the surrounding properties. Out of proportion with the scale of the surrounding buildings and access.
Outline planning - was to be checked if this could be submitted for Gower. SC
146/08 Greenways
Due to there being a meeting in March, it was agreed there should be a review as to whether it is needed as a standard agenda item to have Greenways on the agenda for next month,
A question when does the Camping license begin was asked?
Mr Mead confirmed that it was the week before Easter and that Steve Webb had a caravan in the fields as he looks after the touring fields.
Do the Tourers remain all summer? Mr Mead confirmed they do.
Are they classed as static tourers? Mr Mead - No they are seasonal tourers.
The numbers would be the same, but they can be either or.
147/08 Noticeboards.
Dealt with earlier in the meeting.
148/08 The possible sale of an area of
land adjoining Shore Cottage, Horton, currently owned by the
Penrice Community Council.
Council explained to the members of the public that certain elements of the preliminary discussions had to be held in camera, due to the personal nature of some of the content. However now the meeting could be held in public.
A question from the floor – The Commons Registration had gone ahead, does this include this parcel of land?
The Chairman advised that it did not.
148/08 The possible sale of an area of
land adjoining Shore Cottage, Horton, currently owned by the
Penrice Community Council cont…
Two letters had been received in response to the public notice and individual letters sent from Dr J Hilliard and Mrs P El-Hosaini, were read to all present at the meeting. Dr Hilliard had requested that the proceeds raised from the sale go to the up-keep of the Horton Village Green. Council noted this suggestion.
Cllr I Williams and B Richards submitted via the Clerk that a covenant be placed on the sale to protect the land from any future building. Council was in agreement with this suggestion.
Mr Mumby who owns land adjoining was present at the meeting and confirmed that he had no objection from the sale.
The District Valuer would give an independent valuation and Council decided to continue to use Morgan La Roche Solicitors (Rosemary Morgan) as they had dealt with all previous Council business.
Would the District Valuer need any legal information in order to properly value the land?. How to proceed further to be investigated. SC
149/08 Matters Outstanding.
Greenways – Mr Jeremy Bowen from the floor read a draft of an anonymous letter that was going to be sent to the CCS to the meeting. 13 photographs had been collected demonstrating the lack of touring caravans over the 10 years. The fields in question at Greenways had touring caravans in any number over the last three years. Copies of the site’s tax returns and accounts were mentioned. Mr Bowen confirmed that there is evidence of the lack of caravans on the site.
Green Meadow – Agenda next meeting. SC
15008 Date of next meeting.
10th April 08
Mr Jeremy Bowen from the floor raised the question - How had Mr Mead seen a copy of the minutes of the last meeting before they were confirmed and what document had he given to the Chair prior to the meeting?
Following a short discussion, Council decided that - Approval of minutes/Cllr R Lewis receiving minutes – agenda next meeting. SC